A Discussion Nite with Ubar Luther ( By The Books)

UbarLuther__ [6:08:57 PM] Tal and Welcome all to another Gorean Discussion night.......
.DarKiE. [6:08:58 PM] I shall Make My Leave.. ty for letting me sitting and read
lascivious_HL [6:09:08 PM] Tal Harold~smiles softly~
UbarLuther__ [6:09:16 PM] Tonight's topic is The Kajirus, the Male Slave
Harold. [6:09:24 PM] greeting lascivious
UbarLuther__ [6:09:37 PM] I shall make some opening remarks and then open the floor to Questions and Comments
UbarLuther__ [6:09:57 PM] Let's begin....
UbarLuther__ On Gor, anyone, man or woman, can end up enslaved.
UbarLuther__ The common term for a male slave is "kajirus" and its plural form is "kajiri." A common error is that some believe "kajirus" is the plural form and that the singular form is "kajiru."
UbarLuther__ Male slaves were also not referred to as "boys" in the books. They were still referred to as men, despite their collars.
UbarLuther__ The number of male slaves on Gor is very low, approximately 1 in every 500 men. Most male slaves are either debtors or criminals though a small number are war captives.
UbarLuther__ Few Earth men are brought to Gor to be slaves. It is thought that Jason Marshall, from the Gorean books #14-16, was the first Earth man brought to Gor as a slave.
UbarLuther__ Male slaves are mainly enslaved for economic reasons, as cheap labor. Gorean society does not recognize male slavery as being "natural" as it is with women.
UbarLuther__ Gorean society though recognizes the validity, legality and economic necessity of male slavery. It is a practical decision.
UbarLuther__ Men on Gor generally do not want to be slaves and do not grow to love their slavery as a woman might.
UbarLuther__ Few male slaves are considered valuable and they generally do not garner high prices, even at auction. The primary exceptions are male silk slaves and exotics.
UbarLuther__ The normal high price for a male slave, not a silk slave or exotic, is a silver tarsk. Many female slaves would sell for more than that. Most silk slaves will sell for four to six silver tarsks.
UbarLuther__ The most common types of male slaves are the work slaves who are usually used on cargo galleys, mines, great farms or as porters on wharves.
UbarLuther__ Many cities use male slaves for some of the more unpleasant labor in the cities, such as in the refuse pits or cleaning the public baths.
UbarLuther__ Most work slaves are kept chained together, commonly in groups of 50 to 100 men. In some cities like Ar, an unchained male slave is rarely ever seen.
UbarLuther__ Work slaves are not used for road construction, siege works, erecting walls, or the construction of temples and public buildings.
UbarLuther__ Other male slaves may end up as fighting slaves, either gladiators or bodyguards.
UbarLuther__ Gladiatorial combat is often quite lethal and many fighting slaves are seriously injured or killed during these games. These male slaves may learn the use of certain weapons, primarily cestae and the hook knife.
UbarLuther__ Little is said about the use of male slaves as bodyguards though it seems clear any weapons they used would be limited, if permitted any at all. Such slaves would be expected to give their lives to protect their owner.
UbarLuther__ Some male slaves engage in less strenuous work. Paga attendants work at paga taverns, generally supervising the serving girls and collecting payment from the patrons.
UbarLuther__ Some male slaves may work as actors in the city theaters. Other male slaves may do some basic Caste work, generally the minor, monotonous work.
UbarLuther__ The most valuable male slave though is usually the silk slave, a certified woman's slave, akin to a Pleasure Slave.
UbarLuther__ They are handsome men who have been specially trained to tend to a woman's needs. They are sold in special women's auctions that are closed to free men.
UbarLuther__ There are even special brothels that cater to Free Women and have silks slaves.
UbarLuther__ It is basically a matter of supply and demand, as there are very few such silk slaves because most Gorean men make poor silk slaves.
UbarLuther__ There are masculine and feminine male silk slaves. Some women fear the more masculine ones, worrying that such men will turn on them one day, enslaving them. The feminine ones are rarely used for breeding.
UbarLuther__ Many free women will not kiss their silk slaves as they do not wish to put their lips on a slave.
UbarLuther__ Gorean men generally despise silk slaves and do not treat them well. When a city is captured, the victors often kill the silk slaves out of disgust.
UbarLuther__ Another rare and expensive type of male slave are the exotics, those that are either bred or trained for unusual purposes.
UbarLuther__ Exotics usually sell for high prices due to their rarity. Exotics may be bred for some deformity, even one as insignificant as large earlobes.
UbarLuther__ Special Draft slaves are a type of bred exotic. The potential varieties of specially trained exotics is endless.
UbarLuther__ Male slaves rarely have locked collars. Normally their collar is a band of iron hammered about their neck so that it is much more difficult to remove the collar.
UbarLuther__ There is also no distinctive garb for male slaves as Goreans do not want them to discover how numerous they are, especially in the cities.
UbarLuther__ In many cities, female slaves must always openly wear a symbol of their bondage such as a collar. Male slaves are exempt from this law for the same reason why they do not wear distinctive garb.
UbarLuther__ Goreans worry about a revolt by male slaves.
UbarLuther__ Male slaves commonly kneel, like women do. They do not sit cross-legged like free men. Depending on the preference of their master, their knees may be spread or not.
UbarLuther__ Male slaves may also be branded as any slave though it is not as common as with female slaves. Male slaves are commonly branded with a large block "Kef", not the cursive letter used for female slaves.
UbarLuther__ Female slaves normally despise male slaves. They consider themselves the rightful property of only free persons and do not see male slaves as real men.
UbarLuther__ It is considered a great shame for a female slave to have to touch a male slave. Male slaves though are often permitted to have a female slave for their pleasure, especially as a reward.
UbarLuther__ But, a male slave might be killed for touching a female slave without permission.
UbarLuther__ Male slaves receive more opportunities to win their freedom than women, though usually only in very dangerous situations. Male slaves might be freed and armed if their city is being attacked and additional men are needed.
UbarLuther__ Online, most male slaves are equivalent to silk slaves as their prime duty is in pleasing their Mistress.
UbarLuther__ There are usually a few male fighting slaves around as well. Male work slaves though are extremely rare online.
UbarLuther__ For the most part, these men choose to become a slave. Or they allow a situation to develop where they can be captured, offering little real resistance.
UbarLuther__ In the books, men did not seek to be enslaved. So why do online men opt to become slaves here?
UbarLuther__ Part of the answer is that some of these men are only concerned about furring and see this as an easy route.
UbarLuther__ For others though, they do see themselves as submissive and are actively seeking to be a slave.
UbarLuther__ Such a search runs counter to the Gorean norm of the dominant male. And they will find few willing to teach them to be a slave or willing to accept them as such.
UbarLuther__ The Gorean books indicate that societal conditioning on Earth has emasculated many men, preventing them from accepting or applying their natural dominance.
UbarLuther__ This has had the result of creating some men who are much more submissive in their lives. They then seek out a way to better fulfill this submissiveness.
UbarLuther__ But, such men may also be internally conflicted, at times feeling a dominant urge rising. It can be a difficult situation.
UbarLuther__ Ok, now I shall open the floor to questions and comments.
_x_Kalder !
Cianne ?
UbarLuther__ Kalder?
_x_Kalder KK, Ubar,, thank You
_x_Kalder re the online kajirus,, there is another reason:
_x_Kalder One looks at the various roles available in online Gor and selects the one that seem to be the one most challenging
_x_Kalder some determine,,like an acrtor in a play that they find the role of male slave to be the one where their thsepian bent gets the best exposure.
_x_Kalder ~end~
UbarLuther__ That is probably true but I hazard a guess it is not a common reason.
UbarLuther__ Cianne?
Cianne ai thank You Luther
Cianne You mentioned some of the weapons fighting slaves used - -can You describe this one called cestae?
Cianne end
UbarLuther__ Cestae are ancient Roman gladiatorial weapons and are simply gauntlets, gloves, that are often studden with metal, maybe even spikes
Sartor ?
UbarLuther__ Sartor?
Sartor Thank you Luther.................Where on the body are male slaves branded?
Sartor end
UbarLuther__ Basically the same places as woman are branded, though technically they could be branded anywhere on their body
Sartor nods.........I thought I had read where on forehead............but may hve been a different series then Gor
UbarLuther__ I don't recall any being branded on the forehead.
UbarLuther__ Next question/comment?
Cianne ?
UbarLuther__ Cianne?
Cianne thank You Luther
Cianne Can You tell Me the book where You read about these brothels for FW?
Cianne end
_x_Kalder ?
UbarLuther__ Witness of Gor, the newest Gor novel mentions them.
UbarLuther__ Kalder?
_x_Kalder staying with Online for a minute, Ubar: in your opinion, why is it that so very few men who come on here stay as kajirus for very long? what do we do wrong, here?
UbarLuther__ That is hard to say.....
UbarLuther__ much would depend on why they are here to be a kajirus
UbarLuther__ If it is just sex, they may simply be bored and move on, unwilling to work at it
-Satin- !
UbarLuther__ Others might be conflicted and not udnerstand if they want to be Master or slave
xander_CF !
UbarLuther__ But then some female slaves do jump from master to master as well.
UbarLuther__ Satin?
-Satin- thank You,,,
-Satin- But also would be safe to say that many like with female slave find that the jealousy is hard to deal ,,, but also in the process of finding it just as much for the Free?
-Satin- end
UbarLuther__ Yes I would agree with that Satin.
UbarLuther__ xander?
xander_CF i feel that many of the male salves do not remain for so long because they get a notion with in their head of how things "should" be with Mistress
xander_CF and when things are not as they "should" be they get frustrated or bored and leave
_x_Kalder !
xander_CF i think that it is hard for most men to truly accpet being owned by a woman...and they dont realize that things "should" be as Mistress sees fit not as the idea that they had gotten into their heads i
xander_CF in the first place
xander_CF end
UbarLuther__ Kalder?
_x_Kalder taking Satin and xander's comments to be givem=n, isn't it then a problem in how we set out to educate a newbie, be he Male or femalle?? (I guess that was a Q)
UbarLuther__ Education is an essential key
UbarLuther__ People need to learn about Gor, and what their roles are expected to be
UbarLuther__ If you wish to be a slave, that comes with many expectations
UbarLuther__ And a person should accept those if they want to play that role
-Satin- ?
UbarLuther__ Both new people and old can benefit from more education about Gor.
UbarLuther__ Satin?
-Satin- thank You
penelope_UL !
-Satin- But isn't it reasonable also to remember that W/we are still learning and one of the hardest things to learn is total acceptance,,
-Satin- end
UbarLuther__ Yes, that is true Satin.
UbarLuther__ penelope?
penelope_UL Thank you Master
penelope_UL This is my observation thru the many years here on Gor, that the majority of male slaves are here simply for sex. There are some that are submissive at heart, but they are few and far between.
penelope_UL I used to help train some of them a few years back and learned that for the most part they wished to please and serve a woman but had a -really- hard time being submissive to the Masters, which on Gor, they must do, too.
penelope_UL Thats when i found they left most of the time, when they had to obey and be submissive to the Men, for even tho submissive, that went against their grain. <end>
Cianne !
UbarLuther__ Cianne?
-Satin- !
Cianne I sometimes think the whole problems sometimes arise in the transformation processes
Cianne A Free Woman find an attractive Male - -weapon strips him - -makes him slave puts him in silks
Cianne has him dance around and carry fruit and calls him boy
Cianne then at that point She might feel hes not as exciting anymore and the male slave says he didnt bargain on that happening either
Cianne as he looks at the way hes been feminized
Cianne so maybe somewhere here there is too much changing to please either one
Cianne end
xander_CF !
UbarLuther__ Satin?
-Satin- thank You again,,,
-Satin- Many may be FW,,, Mistress,, but one thing that can never be forgotten,,, it is the Masters of Gor that rule
-Satin- and that is something that is very hard for some to accept,,, cause not All are always right but for the fact They are Masters?
-Satin- end
UbarLuther__ xander?
xander_CF Thank you Master
xander_CF on Mistress Ciannes point i think she is very right and i think alot of the reason is because often times it is forgotten that alot of the male slaves in the book were not femenized at all they were i
xander_CF in fact very masculine and still asserted themselves over the female slaves and often acted as Free Men in the absence of other Free
xander_CF end
tara_P ?
UbarLuther__ Male slaves in the books hated being slaves. They wanted freedom
UbarLuther__ tara?
tara_P thank You Master
tara_P here online are should male slaves be trained differently than female slaves?.....should they not be trained to dance, positions, serves, etc...but more on supervising female slave or fighting to protect the FW of the HS?
tara_P <end>
UbarLuther__ Much depends on the type of slave they are going to be, silk slave, fighting slave, work slave, etc.
_x_Kalder ?
UbarLuther__ The same would apply to female slaves as well, they should be trained according to the slave type they will be
UbarLuther__ Kalder?
_x_Kalder when was the last time anyone here saw a fighting slave in VP Gor?
UbarLuther__ I have seen a few
MasterZack bickering ir fighting ? lol
_x_Kalder kk, ( ineed to get out more) LOL
UbarLuther__ cohen_K in obs is a fighting slave
-Satin- ?
UbarLuther__ Satin?
-Satin- Don't the Kassar's here have some as well?
UbarLuther__ I believe so
-Satin- I have see posts on them
-Satin- thank You,,, end
UbarLuther__ brb..one minute
tara_P yes Master
_x_Kalder kk.. Ubar.. (gonna get season ticket to arena so i can watch Fighters sparr)
-Satin- hmmmmm,, is a matter of finding the arena
_x_Kalder ahh, soo there is one?
-Hawk-Woman- there are a few or were
UbarLuther__ Back
-Satin- Z has one I believe,,,
-Satin- welcome back Luther
-Hawk-Woman- welcome back Luther
UbarLuther__ Thanks
UbarLuther__ Next question/comment?
-Hawk-Woman- !
UbarLuther__ Hawk?
-Hawk-Woman- Personally I think Cianne, Kalder and xander hit upon a few things.. we see learning centers for slave but most are geared to the girls
-Hawk-Woman- the male slaves really have no place to learn
UbarLuther__ There would be few men willing to teach male slave too.
-Satin- ?
UbarLuther__ Satin?
-Satin- But then to Luther raised some points this evening,,, do some know what they want ,,, in training,,,
-Satin- there are more than just the silk slaves,,, as the bodyguards,,, or the fighting slaves of the camps?
-Satin- then would not a bc or insome cases,,, to find a Master to train for HS ??
-Satin- end
UbarLuther__ Talking to a potential male slave before collaring can be beneficial. Find out why they want to be a male slave
UbarLuther__ Ask them about it, what intrigues them, what do they hope to gain by the experience
UbarLuther__ Next comment/question?
-Satin- !
UbarLuther__ Satin?
-Satin- smiles,,, I wish to thank You Luther,,, for bring to focus that there is more than just the kajirus being a silk slave here,,,,,,
_x_Kalder !
-Satin- maybe with this talk some will look to something perhaps that would be more to their liking and be able to do what they wish for staying longer in a role,,,,,
-Satin- and as well to educate some of the Free as to the added roles that some such as i had not read about yet,,
-Satin- end
UbarLuther__ You are very welcome Satin.
UbarLuther__ Kalder?
xander_CF ?
_x_Kalder One other thought.. having been there this may well be selfserving: but with proper training, REAL Ownership and total dedication by both parties, kajirus role can succeed. But as everyone has point
_x_Kalder pointed out.. it takes hard work
_x_Kalder end
UbarLuther__ Kajirus ior kajira, it is very hard work.
-Satin- all
_x_Kalder as does ownership, Ubar
UbarLuther__ And it is important to have a good owner.
Cianne ?
UbarLuther__ Cianne?
Cianne thank You again Luther
Cianne what in Your opinon Luther .. constitutes a good owner then
Cianne of kajiurus?
Cianne end
UbarLuther__ The prime attribute of any good owner, of a kajira or kajirus, is self-mastery. Unless one has mastered themself, they cannot master another.
UbarLuther__ Nothing is more important than that
xander_CF !
UbarLuther__ The Greeks called it "sophrosune"
UbarLuther__ And was one of their prime virtues.
UbarLuther__ xander?
xander_CF i feel that one quality of a good owner is to quickly recognize the specific talents of kajirus and kajira alike..
xander_CF i think the reason alot of slaves are unhappy is because they have talents so mcuh better suited for other forsm of slavery and they are unable to use them because they are cast into
xander_CF sterotypical roles ofr their gender or feminized or just over looked altogether
xander_CF end
UbarLuther__ A good Master will get to know his slave better than the slave knows herself/himself....
UbarLuther__ But that takes work, alot of questioning of the slave, reading between the lines....
UbarLuther__ Communication is very important
Cianne ?
UbarLuther__ And that communication is important even before a collar goes on, finding out what the slave expects from the collar, and informing the slave what is expected of them
UbarLuther__ Cianne?
Cianne There must be some variation though between Master and Mistress - -concerning Their slaves I think because
Cianne Your saying no male REALLY wants to be enslaved in Gor
Cianne saying they really eventually want their freedom
Cianne no matter how much I master Myself this would be so
Cianne end
UbarLuther__ Well, any Master/Mistress can only master someone who is a slave at heart.....
UbarLuther__ if a man is not a slave, then you won't be able to Master him
UbarLuther__ Same as if a woman is not a slave, she can't be mastered either
Cianne Thank You
UbarLuther__ All people contain a dominant and submissive natue, just in varying proportions
UbarLuther__ Men are usually more dominant and women more submissive
UbarLuther__ But there are always exceptions
UbarLuther__ Next comment/question?
xander_CF ?
UbarLuther__ xander?
xander_CF were not slaves also used to fight in battle sometimes as well?
UbarLuther__ If anything, a male slave would be freed to help fight in a battle.
UbarLuther__ Such as if a city were attacked.
KRONUS Tal all
xander_CF ?
UbarLuther__ xander?
KRONUS ?
xander_CF if the male slave is freed to fight for the city what happens to him after the battle is done? Does he go back to being a slave? or has he earned his freedom? or was it just considered a task ordered
xander_CF of him
xander_CF end
UbarLuther__ He remains free
UbarLuther__ The deed is worthy of earning such
UbarLuther__ Kronus?
KRONUS how long shold onewhate with a new gril before Kolloring her ?
UbarLuther__ Kronus, the topic tonight is male slaves. But i will answer your question.....
KRONUS oh
KRONUS sorry
UbarLuther__ There is no set amount of time. But you should wait until you feel comfortable with the situation
Cianne ?
UbarLuther__ Cianne?
Cianne On Your comment of "a slave at heart" --do You have methods of finding this out? I mean just asking isnt always going to be the way to find out.
Cianne And also .. Ive read of this glory and accomplishment of slaves both female and male
Cianne earning Freedom
Cianne if a slave is truly a slave at heart why would they be so happy to earn freedom?
Cianne end
UbarLuther__ Discerning whether someone has a slave heart or not is not an easy task....sometimes it is an intuitive matter....
UbarLuther__ other times the right questions may give some indications
UbarLuther__ Always ask lots of questions, the more info you have the better
UbarLuther__ A slave at heart won't want freedom, she will be very happy as she is
Cianne Thank You
UbarLuther__ Welcome
UbarLuther__ Next question/comment?
KRONUS ?
UbarLuther__ Kronus?
KRONUS ifaFre hasin his or HerFCcontaret that ifeather bracks the Co theone that brakesitbe cmes theslave ofthe other isthisal so go for the one that oversees theFc and if a slave is part of it do the master or Mistress ofthat slavebe comes the slave of the other free ?
UbarLuther__ That is a question for another time Kronus. Tonight is just about male slaves.
KRONUS ok
UbarLuther__ Question/comment?
Cianne ?
UbarLuther__ Cianne?
Cianne ai Luther in clarifications to the giving a kajirus a girl slave as a "reward"
Cianne when this is done is it like always his slave or a night thing and also BOTH those slaves would still be Your property ai?
Cianne end
UbarLuther__ He is not given ownership of a girl, just use of her for a time, such as a night
Cianne ahh okay Thank You
UbarLuther__ Next?
KRONUS ?
UbarLuther__ Kronus?
KRONUS i dont re meberthename of the 2slaves in thebook
KRONUS but one slave was olderto stay with a gril slave for indefentedso will that be the same as what Ciannaask?
UbarLuther__ Yes it would be
UbarLuther__ A male slave is still just a slave
UbarLuther__ They cannot own anything
UbarLuther__ Next comment/question?
UbarLuther__ Ok, we shall end our discussion the for this evening
UbarLuther__ I thank you all for attending tonight